Would the simplest way of measuring one's fat not be as they do at rollercoasters? Simply have two seats at the check-in. When the man comes up to buy his ticket, you politely ask him to take a seat. If he can't fit in just one seat, make him pay extra.

I agree... but i agree with Vinraith's second point: Are we talking about overweight people as in those that weigh alot in kilos/pounds? Or those that look like they could audition to be the stunt double for the Lotto Ball? (Lottery Draws)

Being a rather broad shouldered guy myself (not completely fit but definitly not fat fat), I would hate to have to pay for two seats just because of:

1. My weight (which does not accurately reflect my physical size) and/or

2. Airlines wanting to squeeze more passngers into a plane for higher profits, therefore reducing what could by any means be considered my personal space, and negatively affecting the comfort and happiness of myself and other passengers around me. (Dont you love the Flight Safety Videos at the beginning of the flight, where there is enough leg room for another person to pass in front of you without you even getting up? Wishful thinking much?)

If its a person that is simply so large (width wise) that they cannot sit in one seat without spilling over into neighboring seats, then they should pay for another seat. But if they are simply built (lots-o-muscles) and broad shouldered... well, each one should be looked at specifically, but they should generally not be required to purchase a second seat. Thats just punishing them for being 'fit', big boned and for going to the gym...

Its not even about the money, its more about booking the space, and compensating the airline for accomodating you. Its just like you pay extra for extra bags or extra weight, because every extra kilo you bring means one less for someone else. Same thing here. Every extra seat you take up, you deprive another passenger of their seat, and could, ultimately, cost the airline the price of one customer (you take two seats, but pay for one, the airline misses out on a potential $200 or whatever, and thats not really fair)

Yeah, but then fat people couldnt fly... wait a minute... Fat people cant fly anyway... sorry my bad =P

[/joke]

This is possible, to a degree, for example, if you have a cell phone, or rent, and pay on time, that will be listed with no problems to your credit (building your score).  But that will only help to a degree.

So yes, to build the best kind of score, you typically need some form of credit (whether through a mortgage, or car payment, etc.).  That is what I find ridiculous.

So if someone has paid cash for everything, doesn't own a cell phone, and lives with family, then there isn't going to be any credit, and that can reflect negatively on you. 

And it should. Ideally, your credit rating is related to how dependable you are at paying bills. If you have never paid a bill, there is no history to inform a potential lender about your dependability.

Rent, utility bills, child support, etc are a good indicator of how well you pay your bills. Of course, the best indicator is how well you do paying off your cur.rent creditors, which is why everyone suggests buying minimal stuff on credit and paying it every month as the best way to build credit fast.

Which I understand.  And this is how it should be.

However, for our country to be so dependent on credit, (faith of payment with a legally binding contract), is ridiculous.  That is exactly why we are in the situation that we are in.

The common belief now is that you need to get credit to have credit (not just pay your non-credit bills on time).  And that is sad, because it's becoming more and more true.

Because BMI is a fundamentally flawed system. It takes your heigth, cross references your weight, and if you are over or under a certain threshold you are over or underweight.

It doesnt take into account the fact that an individual may be shorter or taller than average, or especially that people who play contact sports, go to the gym frequently, and generally have more muscle mass than average will weigh more than average due to muscle weighing more than fat.

For instance, when The Governator (Arnold Schwarzenegger) was Mr Universe (i.e. heaps ripped and muscle-y etc etc) his BMI would have been off the charts, saying he was way way way overweight... i think anyone can see that hes definitly not overweight or obese so...

For this reason, BMI wont work.

Better idea is ergonomic data, including; How wide are they are the shoulders, hips/stomach/waist, thighs, knees (how far apart are the knees when resting (sitting) etc). Combine this with a person's height (which is a factor, a broad person that only spills into your space until your elbow is less of a pain than someone who spills into your space until bove you head (OMG, its coming towards us!!!).

I mean, its logical, the seats are only so wide. If you cannot fit in a single seat, or need a crowbar or the jaws of life to get out of the seat once in it... then you need 2 seats, its as much for the fat persons comfort as for those around them.

However, and this is in relation to the next part, weight or height by itself could be a factor. There could be a clause in the terms and conditions that states if you are over X kilos/pounds whatever in weight, and/or over Y cm/feet in height, you must provide accurate ergonomic data to the airline, so that way many people who fall nicely into the 'normal range' of body types, can bypass the need to give the info.

Silver said something about discrimination and Airlines not needing to know ergonomic data, well, i can imagine if they put a clause in the terms and conditions that states:

1. By agreeing to these terms and conditions, you agree to provide the airline with accurate ergonomic data if you are more than X kilos in weight or Y cm in height. (This is to ensure you are provided with an appropriate seat(s) to maxmise the comfort of yourself and other passengers.)

2. If, after providing Ergonomic data, you are found to be able to sit in a single seat in your chosen class without discomfort (yeah, right) or discomforting others, normal procedures apply (so, one person per seat, standard rate/price, sit where you want or where ever is free, etc etc)

3. If after providing ergonomic data, you are found to be unable to sit in a single seat in your chosen class without discomfort or discomforting others, due to exceeding one or more parameters from section 2 (that would be the section on a form concerned with waist sizes etc) you will need to book and purchase a second seat at 90% of the standard purchase price on that day (This is to ensure the plane does not get overbooked, though that never stopped it from happening before, the 90% thing is like a gift to the fatties, like saying, look, its not about money, we feel for you, but you need to do this for comforts sake). If it is impossible to purchase a second seat in the class of your choice, you may be required to up- or downgrade your seat to facilitate finding another seat. This is to maxmise your comfort and that of other passengers.

4. If after providing ergonomic data, you are found to be unable to sit in a single seat in your chosen class without discomfort or discomforting others, due to exceeding Y centimeters in height, you have priority when booking certain seats (subject to availability) that are more suitable to ensuring your comfort during the flight. In the event that an appropriate seat cannot be found in the class of your choice, you may be required to up- or downgrade your ticket (with proper refund) to facilitate relocating you to an appropriate seat. If there are no suitable seats are available while booking/purchasing tickets, you are able to book tickets for another flight, or choose a less than optimal seat. Conditions permitting, once the flight has reached cruise altitude, cabin staff will attempt to swap your seat with another passenger to ensure your comfort.

If the flight is overbooked and an appropriate seat is unavailable after you board, you are entitled to a complete refund and free ticket on the next available flight. If you wish to remain on your chosen flight, you are entitled to a complete refund and a discount on your next flight with <Airline name here>

5. If you are found to be able to sit in a single seat in the class of your choice with no discomfort to yourself or others after providing incorrect/incomplete ergonomic or weight data, you are subject to a fine not exceeding $600, and immediate relocation at the discretion of the Purser and/or Captain. In the event there are no seats available or you are unwilling to co-operate with the cabin crew and captain, you are subject to immediate cancellation of your ticket without refund, with an additional fine not exceeding $100.

Anyway, i think that covers all the bases, by putting it in the terms and conditions agreement, the passenger must agree to it before anything can happen. As a company, the Airline has some rights as to how it wishes to run its operation, and, regardless of how fair or unfair or bullshit their wishes are, is their perogative, and if you dont like it, you can go jump and fly with another airline. This protects the airline from descrimination suits etc.

So, the idea was that people over a certain height, weight or both would have to fill in a form with measurements, like weight, width/diameter of the body at different points (hips, shoulders etc) and give it to the Airline. If a passenger is over a certain height or weight, but is found to be able to sit in a normal seat in his class of choice without bugging other people of being uncomfortable, then fine, normal procedures, book you tickets, choose your seats, etc etc.

If a passenger exceeds the limit on one or more weight/width/diameter parameter in the form they would have to book and purchase an extra seat, preferrably next to them, so either someone in the family travels in a different part of the plane (across the aisle whatever), or the overweight passenger must move as far as necessary to find an appropriate 2 seats side by side. The 10% discount on the second seat is to make it appear that the Airline gives a damn and isnt just trying to steal you money. by giving a discount they genuinely appear to be concerned for passenger comfort.

If a passeger exceeds a certain height, he would have priority when booking seats at the front of sections or near emergency exit doors, where there is more leg room, or in other classes. If, by the time the passenger books, there are no seats left, well, tough, he can choose a later flight, or choose to sit in a less comfortable seat, and when they reach cruising altitude, the cabin crew will try to swap him with someone else in a bigger leg room seat. Then, if there are no seats available after the passenger has boarded (because of being overbooked whatever) he has the option of staying on the plane in a less comfy seat, and hoping the cabin crew can relocate him, or getting a refund, discounted ticket for another flight and free passage on the next available flight to the original destination.

Lastly, if you lie about your weight or ergonomics (height doesnt matter so much, that more about the passngers comfort than that of his neighbors) and you cant fit in a single seat without bugging your neighbors, you get a big fine and are kicked to the worst possible seats in the plane, if the worst seats happen to be pretty good, well, some people down the back will get moved up and the passenger moves down the back. If you do not co-operate, or are no available/suitable seats, you kicked off the plane and your ticket cancelled without refund, plus another, smaller fine (in the event of you being difficult... if there are no seats then the second fine is dropped).

So, i think that covers all the bases, (more or less, its by no means a legal document) but those basic guidlines should be able to facilitate introducing pricing and seating based on eorgonomic considerations. And, if people dont like it, they dont have to sign the terms and conditions. Cry all you like, but in the end, at this point, the Airlines have the law on their side

Wow Rez, you should be the one to write that policy.  You have the verbage down pat for it. 

You have covered all bases, (at least as far as I can imagine), and I think that it might be managable.  Airlines would suffer for it to some degree, though, at least in the short term, which might cause them to refuse such a policy.

I think you are on the right track though.

My favorite thing about the airlines is they'll make you pay for two seats, but they're not beside each other.

And the problem is only getting worse:

http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-general/20090701/US.MED.Obesity.Rankings/

Actually, we are already paying for obese people to fly.  Some time ago, they changed how much checked luggage can weigh.  Most people will say well its because the baggage handlers.

As a Statistican and a Mathmatician let's look at it this way:  Mathmatically we can know how much force a plane will need to take off while compensating for weight.  We can also Mathmatically know how much total weight of cargo will be going onto the said plane.

For the most part, the cargo weight can be come a standard number (since we can figure out the max weight of cargo that can be held) we are able to deduce at what capacity is too much for passagers' total weight for a successful and safe flight. 

Since most people from the States refuse to cut down portions or size of ANYTHING (and Yes, I'm guilty of this ocassionally) we have the dilemma that people's weight is gradually getting heavier and heavier.  So some statisticans crunched the numbers (with the pushing of the insurance companies) and figured that to have a safe and successful that the weight of checked baggage should/would have to be reduce inorder to compenisate for the higher rate of overweight individuals there will be on the plane.

Essentially, the people who are not overweight get screwed because they are unable to take more because of some over weight person.

This is a similar situation with the housing market.  How is it fair if I bought a house that I could afford and some other guy buys a 500000 only puts 1% down on it or some guy who shouldn't buy a house buys a house.  Due to this boobiery now EVERYONE has to pay. 

I think in the States it seems easier to punish the whole instead of the individual. Just look at Bernard Madoff, who lived a lavish life off of other people's money for some time.  I highly doubt that he's suffering now (granted prison isn't the nicest place) and I highly doubt that the billions of dollars he stole will ever get equally replaced back.

One final thing about obesity and the States.  I'm not sure any of you guys have been out of the States, but people from the States tend to be bigger not necessarly fat, but of fuller size (this is the only way I can explain it) than the rest of the world (Europe included).

Fuzzy Logic, I know we haven't agreed on many issues but I agree with you on this one.

In general, as a U.S. Citizen, I am getting sick and tired of the minority pushing the majority around. Or to put it another way the few affecting the whole.  Now I will have to attach this disclaimer statement: there are some ocassions when the few affecting the whole isn't bad, but I think that its happening far too much in the U.S and essentially the U.S. is being pushed by the few.  As long as those few get what they want the other mooncalves should shut it.

The "individually" part is the key - currently everyone pays for inadequate seating.  I would rather everyone paid for adequate seating and anyone that wants additional comfort could pay extra.  I currently will not pay for extra leg room on the basis that I am of fairly average height and proportions and can still have insufficient leg room.

Incidentally, our cheapest cheap ariline in the UK - Ryanair - are currently seriously considering removing two of the three toilets, squeezing in six extra seats, and forcing you to pay to use the remaining toilet.

Edit: Hmm - can't seem to get the quoting right on the above - sorry.

Yep, I won't be flying Ryanair...But that's another bugbear - why can't people on short flights go to the loo before take off? When I think about it, I'm all for charging for the loo.

The plane I was on was a Thompsons 737-800. I didn't have much elbow room and not much more for my feet. 'Sardines' spring to mind. Plus the fatty next to me wanted to read a book with elbows sticking out. Ha! I made sure that was damned uncomfortable ...lasted 20 minutes before the book went away.

Last Sep I was on a Bmi Airbus, big bugger with a 3-4-3 seat arrangement. The centre 4 were empty and I had the 3 to myself...

Well, im sure higher level Airlines like British Airways, Qantas, whatever you guys have in the US could/would take it up, you know, one of the extra 'services' they provide to their customers because they pay more.

but cheap airlines like JetStar will probably refrain because on of the things you just accept with really cheap flights is that you are going to be a bit unfomfortable so...